The Giathletics
Posted By Jeff Fletcher on March 15, 2009 9:42 pm
During my chat the other day, one of my readers asked how good of a team you could make if you combined the A’s and Giants. That got me thinking, which is always a scary thing.
So here is my 25-man roster from the A’s and Giants. I am going to build toward this opening day, with the idea of winning in 2009, not necessarily in the long-term. I’m taking the players’ current conditions into account, so no Eric Chavez or Justin Duchscherer.
On to the team…
Starting lineup:
RF Randy Winn
SS Edgar Renteria
LF Matt Holliday
1B Jason Giambi
DH Jack Cust
3B Pablo Sandoval
C Bengie Molina
CF Aaron Rowand
2B Mark Ellis
Orlando Cabrera’s a better value than Renteria, but I’m not taking contracts into account here. I think Renteria’s slightly better offensively, but this is just about a coin flip. I’ll give Renteria the benefit of the doubt since he’s been here all spring. Rowand vs. Ryan Sweeney was an interesting dilemma. Yes, Rowand had a down year, and Sweeney has some upside, but I think Sweeney’s upside is not that much higher than Rowand’s average year, and Rowand is better defensively.
Rotation
RH Tim Lincecum
RH Matt Cain
LH Randy Johnson
LH Jonathan Sanchez
LH Barry Zito
Gee, that looks familiar. Sorry, A’s fans. With Duke out, there are no A’s starters who I feel good about being better this year than any of the Giants starters. Brett Anderson, Trevor Cahill, Vin Mazzaro and Sean Gallagher all have potential to be above average starters, but I’m not ready for them just yet. May have a couple of them on the 2010 team.
Bullpen
RH Brian Wilson
LH Jeremy Affeldt
RH Bobby Howry
RH Brad Ziegler
RH Russ Springer
LH Gio Gonzalez
Not too tough here. I would take Joey Devine, but he’s been out a while with a bad elbow and I’m not convinced he’s going to be ready for opening day. The four setup men are all pretty solid. I took Gio Gonzalez because I think he’s really looking more like a solid lefty reliever than a starter, at the moment. He can also be the long man, and he’s a second lefty. Only need six relievers on this team, with the starters we have.
Bench
OF/IF Eugenio Velez
C Kurt Suzuki
IF Emmanuel Burriss
OF Fred Lewis
IF Nomar Garciaparra
You might be surprised by Burriss’ inclusion here, since I’ve said I think Burriss’ long-term development would be helped more if he starts at Triple-A than sits the bench in the majors. However, I’m interested in the best team for 2009, not developing. That’s why I like Burriss (speed, defense, switch-hitter) for my bench. Lewis, Garciaparra and Suzuki are my bats off the bench. Burriss is here for speed and defense and Velez for speed and versatility. He might even hit a little. Nomar is my late-inning defensive replacement for Giambi. I could have had Travis Ishikawa, but then I don’t have a backup third baseman. Note that I need a lot of speed on the bench because I’ve got some real cloggers in the starting lineup.
So that’s my team. I figure it would be good for 95-100 wins.
Go ahead and rip it apart.
The only beef I would have with this is catcher. At this stage in their careers, Suzuki is a superior player both offensively and defensively. It could be argued that Molina calls a better game but that would be splitting hairs because Suzuki is very good. The only Molina provides over Suzuki is perhaps a little more power.
I am guessing you are taking the list literally which is why you have Burriss on the bench instead of Cabrera.
I think Bengie is a little better defensively and offensively than Suzuki right now. Suzuki certainly could wind up being better, but I’m going with the safe thing. I have Suzuki as my backup, so I can always flip flop em and stick with the hot hand. Besides, I’ve got the whole Giants rotation, so might as well take their catcher, right?
As for Burriss, I like him over Cabrera for a bench spot (not as an overall player) because of the things I mentioned: speed, versatility (can play second and short) and switch-hitting. Cabrera isn’t as fast as Burriss. He’s better at short, but he’s probably not better at second.
Nice work Jeff! I like the list, I would just make one change. If you’re really just trying to win in 2009 and ignoring development I would drop Zito and add Bumgardner.
[...] Giants and A’s to collude. Bay Bridge Baseball imagines what the lineup and rotation for the Giathletics might look [...]
There’s no way in hell that Zito should be included among the starters if you were combining the two teams. Is that based purely on name/accolades alone? Because his stats show that he’s nothing more than a below-average pitcher.
I like the list overall – I still would probably take Cabrera over Burriss, and possibly Schierholtz or some A’s bum over Velez as a 5th OF, but I see where you’re coming from by wanting his speed on the bench, and his defensive versatility (even if he can be a lousy defender and baserunner at times…).
I would also consider taking someone on the bench to platoon with Cust and/or Giambi at DH, maybe even use another IF like Cabrera in that role and put them at first against LHP – I’d guess there’s a good chance they’d be better defensively than Giambi, even without any experience at 1B. Or maybe move Sandoval to 1B at times and some combo of Renteria/Cabrera at SS and 3B. I would also platoon Lewis and Rowand, and shift Winn to CF with Lewis in RF against RHP.
The only actual problem I have with your team is Zito. Zito is awful. Just a terrible pitcher at this point in his career. His velocity is down, which also means he doesn’t snap his curveball off as sharply…which makes his “stuff” terrible. His control has always been shaky. Someone has to be better than Zito. Bumgardner, Anderson, Cahill, or some other A’s starter…one of them has to be better than Zito now (even if bringing them up is a bad long-term move).
Not even close… I guess defense has no value, because that team is about as brutal as the well….the 2008/2009 Giants. Sweeney easily is a better choice than Rowand, even in center field. Sweeney gets on base at better clip, strikes out far less than Rowand, and will be the better player this year. Rowand is the Giant’s version of Bobby Crosby (Slider away, swing and a miss).
Renteria over Cabrera? You pass up gold glove caliber defense, because he is missing a couple of weeks of an extended spring traning. Suzuki is the better choice at catcher. Better defensively, better offensively, better calling games (just look at the team ERA’s last year).
As for the starting staff let’s have a reality check. The Giant’s vaunted pitching staff was 8th in the national league with a 4.34 era. a 45 yr old starter is not going to take that staff from a 72 win team to a contender. The Giant’s have a lot of pitchers who throw a lot of pitches trying to strike batters out. They nibble instead of letting their defense work. A team can’t win 95-100 games with the lack of consistency provided by Zito or Sanchez.
I can see why some of you guys might not want Zito. He has been terrible. But I still think that if he’s right he has a chance to be better than Dana Eveland.
Brett Anderson will be better than both of them by June, but I’m not picking in June.
Speaking of Zito, what is the threshold/barometer that he would have to reach in order for the Giants to realize that they would be better served to just release him?
Brian, that’s a great question. I think he’d have to be really bad, worse than he’s been so far. I don’t think he’s going to be worse, because he’s been pretty bad. He’s more likely to get better than worse, even if it’s just a little better.
Mazzaro, Anderson, Cahill will all be better than Zito and Sanchez by June.
“If he’s (Zito) right he has a chance…”. That statement signifies all that is wrong with the Giants. How many times have the Giants fans been asked to “hope” for something big only to be disappointed. Weren’t they supposed to ‘go after’ top free agents? How many offers were made to any of the top free agents? Now, they are saying they have flexibility to be a major player at the trade deadline. So to be a major player, who are they willing to give up? Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, Bumgardner, Posey, Alderson? To get a top tier player at the major league level, you have give up top tier prospects or young players.
First off… the name The Giathletics makes me want to puke.
2nd… Suzuki over Molina by the slightest of margins IMO, similar offensively and defensively but the fact that Suzuki isn’t the slowest man in baseball on the basepaths is my X factor since the rest is so close.
Rowand, Lewis, AND Winn over Ryan Sweeney??? Sweeney is the best defender of the three, and hit for the 2nd highest avg. They all have similar OBP, the only knock is he does has the least power of the three, but he at least deserves the backup OF role over Lewis.
Zito over Eveland?? No one in their right mind would ever make this choice. Zito has been one of the worst starters in baseball since he became a Giant.
May be nitpicking… but Ziegler would never be behind Affeldt and Howry in the bullpen. I can’t argue with that bullpen though, given Devine’s exclusion due to injury.
I like to think of myself as fairly unbiased… but seems like serious bias in the Giants direction on this. Zito?? wow….
Anyone who claims that Suzuki is the same or better than Molina offensively needs to explain themselves. I’m not talking about speed or defense or pitch calling, just offense.
Compare their stats and please tell me how someone who was outperformed in almost every offensive category last year is better magically better.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=28802
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=3865
Jeff,
upon review I’d say they are offensively neutral. Bengie hits for a little more power, Suzuki has higher OBP and a better walk to strikeout ratio. I wish they showed the HIDP stat because I would venture that Bengie is far worse there, and if he is on the same pace as he was with the Angels, one of the worst in the league.
Bengie’s defensive skills are not those of Suzuki at this point. Suzuki was exeptionally good fielding his position and he does a very good job of throwing out runners on the basepaths. Bengie’s days as a great defensive catcher are about 200 cheeseburgers ago. He’s still good but there are probably 10 catchers better than him these days.
I will give you the nod with the game calling although it took Suzuki just a part of a year and a spring training (as a rookie) to get in a rythm for game calling. Its so rare to watch an A’s game and see him get shaked off.
I actually disagree with everyone who is bagging Zito. This is coming from someone who shed no tears when he signed his really, really ridiculously good looking contract with the Giants. He has had several down years but he also has a track record of success which you cannot say of the A’s young guys. Is he the pitcher he once was? No. Will he win 20 again? Doubtful. Will he more often than not put you in a position to win? I would say yes. The guys on the A’s side don’t have the term of service to even answer any of these questions with any degree of certainty.
The day will come when one or more of the A’s young guns is a better choice than Zito on this fantasy team but it isn’t at the moment. Eveland has the most experience of the bunch and if memory serves had a pretty similar record to Zito last year. If all things are equal, I go with the former Cy Young guy and the guy who has post season experience.
’08 win values (thanks fangraphs)
Zito- 1.5
Eveland- 2.7
I don’t see Zito improving much considering he’s no puppy anymore and his declining velocity and iffy command.
Eveland, given his age and lack of experience has a better chance to improve and should with experience.
This is a no-brainer Jeff.
Barry Zito sucks . . . that is all.
Just talked to a scout who covers both teams. He said he’d take Zito over Eveland, by a nose, but he added that he’d take Dallas Braden over either one of them.
He also said he’d take Cabrera over Renteria. Cabrera is much better defensively and they’ll hit about the same, he said.
We argued a bit about Ryan Sweeney vs. Aaron Rowand and ended up making a bet on who would have a better offensive year. I took Rowand. He took Sweeney. I think he just wanted to argue with me about Rowand, though, because he also said he’d rather have Rajai Davis in center than Sweeney, so that’s not much of an endorsement.
I think I’d take Curt Young over Zito at this point. I love Barry, but he has flat out lost it.
Fletch, you were definitely swaying toward SF on this one. They must’ve invited you to a sweet buffet in the clubhouse that day to butter you up.
Fun concept though…. you should keep this one in your back pocket and do it again around the All Star break.