Manny … unbelievable
Posted By Jeff Fletcher on February 26, 2009 9:31 pm
Manny Ramirez has rejected a Dodgers’ offer for the fourth time!
Something incredibly fishy is going on here. By all accounts the Giants are merely hanging around, not willing to outbid the Dodgers. So, what could Scott Boras be doing?
One of the following must be true…
- 1. The Giants are really willing to throw big money (ostensibly at least $45 million) at Manny, and just being really coy about it.
- 2. There is a third team lurking out there willing to give Manny more than $45 million.
- 3. Manny has pictures of Frank McCourt in a compromising position with a sheep, and he’s just waiting to bust them out.
- 4. Manny and Scott Boras have both lost their minds.
Personally, I’m thinking that 2 is the most likely of these scenarios, but I wouldn’t rule out 4. What about No. 1? Logic says that if the Giants really had an offer better than $45 million to make that they would have made it long ago and Manny would be wearing black and orange already.
So I have no idea.
Sure makes for interesting reading, though.
I can’t believe it. Seriously, what’s next? Goo Giants. Maybe Damon Bruce was right.
I want to throw out the possibility that just Manny’s crazy and Boras is advising him to take the contract but he still wants the 4-5 years $100 million range.
Also, the Dodgers need Manny, and Agent Ned is their GM. Wouldn’t surprise me if they were willing to up the offer a couple more times.
If team #3 is out there, why haven’t they made an offer yet?
I think that the times are hard but Manny, and/or Scott, think that they can play a better game of chicken than the Dodgers.
It would be hilarious if no one signs Manny.
I might be the only one who does not want Manny in the Orange and Black. Most other fans I talk to usually say something like “hey it’s not my money, so why not” Yes he is the best hitter in baseball and yes the Giants need a middle of the line up guy. But do we really need a defensive liability in left field. With the size of the outfield at ATT and the amount of ground he needs to cover, It is not unreasonable to believe that he could cost the team as many runs as he provides.
Also what was his true value to the Dodgers last year. Wasnt it more the case that the rest of the division played crappy at the end of the year then it was Manny taking them to the title?
JMHO
No more hilarious than:
- the Giants’ 3-8 hitters
- Zito will be making $18.5 million this year
- their #6 hitter is still owed $48 million, $16 million of which will be “earned” this year
- the Dave Roberts signing…don’t worry, he’s only making $6.5 million this year…for a player who’s turning 37 in May and will be lucky to be the 5th OF
- Bengie Molina’s man boobs…watching him run down the line is like reliving the slo-motion Bo Derek scene from “10″, both in terms of the bounciness and speed
- that the terms “pud”, “meat” and “dog” (as in the ‘the Dog’ who patroles the bleachers) will be heard at least 1,000 each over the upcoming season and fans aren’t a bit thrown off by it
Josh, I have to disagree with you on the defense part. He’s terrible, but so was Barry Bonds. I don’t think he comes close to being so bad as to cost more runs than he provides.
As for your second point, the Dodgers were 54-54 before Manny, and 30-24 after he arrived. They averaged 4.16 runs before he came, and 4.63 runs after.
Josh deserves to be banned from making comments, we are all dumber now for having read that. I’m sure that Manny’s defensive liabilities would cost the Giants many runs as he could provide offensively. You’re also right in questioning his value to the Dodgers last year in their playoff push…I doubt his .396 average with a .489 OBP and .743 SLG over the final 53 games had absolutely nothing to do with them making the playoffs.
Apparently deferred payments is the issue with Manny (probably more of an issue with Boras). I could be selling him short, but I am not sure how astute Manny is with the whole time value of money thing. Anyway, this the blurb that I pulled from another very good baseball site, mlbtraderumors.com.
“According to Dylan Hernandez of the Los Angeles Times, deferred payments were the key issue in Manny Ramirez’s rejection of the Dodgers’ most recent offer. As Hernandez explains,
Under the terms of the contract that Ramirez was offered by the Dodgers on Wednesday, he would’ve received $10 million this year. And by exercising the option for the second year, he would’ve received $10 million in 2010.
Ramirez, who turns 37 in May, would’ve been paid the remaining $25 million over the next three years without any added interest. He would’ve received $10 million in 2011, $10 million in 2012 and $5 million in 2013 .
Scott Boras made a counter offer using the same basic language and numbers of the club’s two-year, $45MM offer, but without the deferred payments. Boras told the Dodgers that they have until noon to strike a deal.”
I think you have to remember that wherever Manny ends up, he will not be a happy camper. It will not be the same Manny that was on a “salary drive” at the end of 2008. Even if he had gotten the $100 million over 4 years that he was wishing for, there would be nothing “pushing” him for the first three years of his guaranteed contract.
Look for Manny to be injury-prone, disgruntled, and a major distraction in 2009 after not coming close to being paid what he believes he deserves.
I said I might be the only fan that does not want Manny and it looks as if with the exception of Mike, that might be true!
Shooter Beck,
Josh has a valid point. It’s not necessarily that he’ll cost us as many runs as he’ll create, but think about it this way: Lewis and Winn are both very good fielders for their position (and also arguably our two best position players). The additional offense Manny provides over them may be mostly offset by the loss in defense. There are actual statistics to back this up, by the way. Manny is certainly an upgrade over Lewis and Winn, but a players like Renteria, if he has a year like he did two years ago, will be a bigger improvement over our shortstops from last year than Manny will be over Lewis and/or Winn.
Jeff, Bonds was actually a much better fielder than he was given credit for at the end of his career (obviously most of his career he was regarded as the best defensive LF in the game). The different defensive metrics agree he was still around average for a LF at the end of his career. Even though he lacked footspeed, he took good routes and had excellent footwork to make up for it.
One last point, Shooter how does signing Manny make the problems you listed any better? What’s the point in bringing up Zito’s contract, Rowand’s contract, or Robert’s contract? We’re on the hook for them regardless of whether we sign Manny. It sucks, sure, but it seems completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Good points B. Bonds was a great defensive player at the end of his career. Manny is a bad defensive player at the end of his career.
Josh
If the issue is deferral as Roy points out I think it’s reasonable for him to turn this down. If there is no interest then he’d want the money front loaded. The only benefit to the player in a deferral situation is the interest. With the dollars that are involved I don’t think he is going to see any tax breaks.
However I think he is in a precarious spot because his market if the Dodgers shut down is virtually nothing. The Angels backed out officially a while back and aren’t likely to jump back in even at a discount after signing Abreu. The Cubs and Mets have money problems now. The Giants are at best a long shot option and would probably only be interested if his price dropped quite a bit (which is a possibility). The Yankees you can never count out of this kind of thing but banking on them would be unwise of him.
B -
At no point in my post did I say that any of those things I listed would be made better by bringing in Manny; actually the “Dog” references would likely increase quite a bit since the Giants would hit a lot more HRs with Manny than without him. I was simply building upon the previous post that stated that it would be funny if nobody signed Manny by reiterating some of the “funny” things with the current state of the Giants.
Oh, and thanks, “by the way”, for pointing out that the metrics for assessings players’ defensive capabilities have evolved over the years beyond strictly fielding percentages and assists for outfielders. I have no problem admitting that Manny will never be valued for his defensive contributions, but his Range Factor ratings are not as bad as I would have thought they would be, they definitely aren’t so bad as to off-set the positive overall impact his presence would have in the lineup. Also, I’m sure his defensive deficiencies would be compensated by our outstanding, Gold Glove caliber centerfielder (that was sarcastic for those of you who missed it).
Again, I agree with you that if Renteria hit as well as he did 2 years ago (.330 BA/.860 OPS) would be a huge improvement over the offensive juggernaut of the Vizquel/Burress/Bocrap trifecta. But I have a hard time with people not being able to see beyond batting average in assessing a player’s value to his team. If healthy, Winn will probably hit in the .285-.300 range and yes, Lewis will likely hit somewhere between .275-.290, but decent batting averages alone aren’t enough from your corner outfielders, especially given the atrocity that is the rest of their lineup. If Manny were to replace either player (preferably Winn since Lewis has greater upside), he would bring significantly greater power numbers, a much better OBP and would have the ripple effect of pushing the other players into slots in the lineup that they are more suited for. I don’t see how that’s wrong of me to hope for rather than the alternative of either Lewis or man-boobs Molina in the cleanup spot. I’m sure the prospect of facing either of them instead of Manny would have opposing pitchers trembling in fear.
Lasly, bringing up other contract figures is not a moot point when they have an impact on the team’s (in)ability to sign a player of Manny’s magnitude, and I don’t fault the player’s for getting as much as they can in their negotiations. I do have a problem, however, with the thought-process of approving superstar level compensation for less than superstar level talent.
Sorry, final points – the Giants’ payroll is down by about $14 million from last year. I’m assuming that they would say that the reason for this is either based on the current economy (including any impact on sponsorship deals) or the decline in season tickets sold, likely a combination of both. I’m no economics expert, but I would have to assume that bringing in a player of Manny’s cache would have to positively impact revenues. Maybe not to the point of completley offsetting his salary figure, but it would definitely help.
The Manny sopa opera is pretty tiresome at this point. The Giants should either sign him or unequivocally disavow all rumors.
If Manny were to be signed,which outfielder besides Roberts, who’s as good as gone, would be traded? I predict that Fred Lewis is the most tradeable because he’s cheap, under control for several years, and had himself a productive full season last year.
Schierholtz is an unknown commodity to most teams, and Rowand and Winn’s contracts are unattractive. I doubt the Giants would want to one of those and Roberts’ contract.
Even if the Giants aren’t truly interested one bit, I love that the ‘thought’ is still out there and it’s causing a major pain in the a for the Dodgers. Let’s bleed ‘em dry.